Casting Light on Shadows of Doubt in the Age of Disinformation with Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.

Ever wonder how tales more twisted than a labyrinth find their way into the zeitgeist? Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D. , an infodemiologist with a knack for unraveling the tangled web of misinformation, joins us for an eye-opening chat that's as enlightening as it is essential. Together, we traipse through the murky realms of modern-day witch hunts and the dire consequences of disinformation. But it's not all doom and gloom; Pauline's insights provide a beacon of hope, illuminating the path to discerning truth in a post-truth world.

This episode's narrative arc bends towards the bizarre and wonderfully human. We get candid about the intersection of science and spirituality, discussing how unexplained phenomena like goosebumps can coexist with the rigor of research. The conversation takes whimsical detours, too—imagine stumbling upon a roadside coffin for sale, sparking a quirky convo and a business brainwave. And for the bibliophiles, the buzz about Beekeeper's Bookshop holds the promise of a community sanctuary for literature lovers.

Wrapping things up with a heartwarming segment, listeners share their wildest stories and we honor the afterlife wishes of loved ones with a blend of sentiment and humor. Pauline's departure from our tea-spilling soirée leaves us not only pondering the complexities of our digital epoch but also holding onto the thread of human connection that weaves through every tale we tell. Tune in for a podcast that's as rich and robust as your favorite cup of Earl Grey.

Connect with Pauline and pre-order her new book  Fake News, Witch Hunts, & Conspiracy Theories at https://www.datadoyenne.com/

Grab a warm drink and join us- we saved a seat for you. Don't forget to stay updated with Spill the TEA by following us on Facebook at Women Gathering and Growing with TEA or on Instagram at Grow with TEA.

Transcript

Kerri: 0:00

Welcome back everyone to Spill the Tea. I'm so excited We've already been deep diving into fun conversation that's had us laughing and excited to continue our conversation. We have a guest here Her WhatsApp, I think it was, which I had no idea how to use it.

Tracy: 0:28

But I got to meet these really cool women in this group and talk a little bit about leadership and Pauline was part of that conversation and I friended her on LinkedIn. And then I started like you know, semi stalking or stuff on LinkedIn because it was so interesting. So you know, linkedin I've shared on here before. I'm not a big fan of LinkedIn. It's like a walking resume. It's not my friend, usually it's clunky, but then pulling stuff always pops up and I stop and I read it because I'm like, oh, my goodness, this is so good. So it's always about debunking something, or is this conspiracy, or finding the truth about something. And then in the last couple months she's been talking a little bit about witch hunts, which has really sparked my curiosity. So then I shared it with Mary Gary and shared it with the whole group and I was like, listen, I'm going to reach out to Pauline on LinkedIn and see if I can't get her to join us. So, pauline, thank you for coming.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 1:21

Thank you so much. I was so excited to get your message because we did connect on WhatsApp and I think we met once. I don't think we met more than that. So it was really nice to hear from you and I've been following you guys. I've got the book. I just I shared that earlier. I picked it up. I said, all right, I'm reading the book. So the Women Gathering and Growing with tea. If you don't have it, you need to get a copy.

Tracy: 1:47

Thank you so much. So here's another really cool thing, guys. Pauline is an infodemiologist. Anybody want to garner, or you know? Guess what that means before she tells us.

Kerri: 2:04

I don't. I don't know exactly what it means, but I did check out your LinkedIn profile and I was just like, oh, she's a truth seeker. I love her.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 2:11

The truth is so important, especially now when there's so little of it, it seems.

Mary: 2:18

So I'm hoping that you want to guess, ok, I was going to say do you want to guess what?

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 2:22

Actually, I think I may have coined it. I may be the first infodemiologist. I'm not the first infodemiologist. I think I'm the first person to call myself that. Let me step back. The infodemic. It's essentially. The infodemiologist is someone who studies the infodemic, and the infodemic is essentially the pandemic of disinformation. So I essentially study things that aren't true and other people trying to create things that aren't true, that are trying to do something. So I might be creating a disinformation campaign because I want to ruin a political candidate or I want to make money somehow, or I just want to disparage you, because that's something I do. There's some gain from it. That's usually not good. So I essentially am studying those things that aren't true. And I think it's so funny because I belong to this group of folks who also study the infodemic and I told them that I started calling myself an infodemiologist and they just lit up. They thought why didn't we think of that?

Mary: 3:22

We'll call you the wordsmith. There you go. That's appropriate, you're right, and so it comes naturally for you to be creative like that.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 3:31

Oh, I'm creative, there's no question about it, but creative in a very good way, like I'm not going to be creative and create falsehoods and share that. You know. Very creative and in terms of sharing the truth, which actually is something you need to do, because when you see things that are disinformation usually it's something that's really salacious, right, that draws you in You're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe something like that is happening. And the truth isn't sexy usually. So how can we make the truth almost as salacious as the falsehoods? That's really difficult. That's where creativity comes in, I think.

Kerri: 4:05

It's so interesting. Earlier I read this quote I shared it with a friend, actually and now that we're having this discussion, maybe this is why it said to add subtract move closer to joy. And so I'm thinking about what you're saying and how the disinformation. You have to know what disinformation is in order to get closer to the truth. Right Like if you don't know something's a lie. You definitely aren't going to get to the truth if you're believing the false Right.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 4:36

And the false is packaged like the truth. So you do believe it, you know you. And? And sometimes the more outrageous and this is where we kind of get into conspiracy theory land, but sometimes the more outrageous and this is where we kind of get into conspiracy theory land, but sometimes the more outrageous it is, the more people really. I don't know if they want to believe it, but they tend to. It's really interesting to see what people believe, and so on. I have so much fun chatting with folks who say they'll spout something off to me and I'm like that is not even a little bit true. I'm not sure where on earth you're getting this, but yeah, so it's fun to me at work.

Tracy: 5:08

This week I got a huge donation of eclipse glasses. Obviously, we don't want kids with burnt retinas. Um, that's bad, that's bad.

Tracy: 5:16

No that's so bad. So super cool, great donation. All the kids are going to have glasses and their parents and their siblings Super nice. This very educated high level administrator was very angry that we will be closed that day because Buffalo Public Schools are closed and I thought it was because he was like, oh, education, don't take the day off. But it was because he truly believes that eclipse is not true, that it's a falsehood, that somebody made up the eclipse Didn't know how to respond. I'm like nobody ever told me I could say no to science, like I didn't. I wasn't sitting in bio and like no, sorry, you're wrong, I don't believe it.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 5:55

Well, do you know? I heard, and I wish I could remember who wrote this article, but I read this like it's gotta be 20, 25 years ago, and someone was talking about that very thing like not believing in science, and he said certain things just are and whether you believe them or not doesn't matter. He said gravity is. If you don't believe in gravity, you don't float away. It is, and I wish I could remember who said that, but I I keep thinking that, like that's right, science is and you can believe eclipses are real. If you don't believe them, it doesn't matter.

Jodie: 6:29

It's still going to get dark, whether you believe it's going to happen or not.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 6:33

Absolutely. And then how are you explaining that? Oh, they'll have an explanation. That's what always cracks me up too. These people are creative, I'll tell you. I hear the earth is flat. I hear that's still something that people believe. I hear the earth is flat. I hear that's still something that people believe. I hear the moon landing didn't happen. That makes its rounds. And my favorite and I can unpack this because I actually really really dug into this I don't expect anyone to ever I mean, I can give you tips and tricks to determine if something is real or not and to do your own fact checking. I don't expect anyone to do the deep dive I did, but I don't know if you've heard this that schools elementary well, I think it's primarily high schools is where this is allegedly happening, that they have kids who identify as cats and therefore there are litter boxes in the high schools.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 7:15

You've heard this right 100% not true, not true, not true. Yet I will give a talk and I will share this story and tell everybody how I found out it's not true. And someone will still all Googled it because that's like the number one thing you do, right? Okay, let me see where this is starting from, and I find out that I think it was a politician somewhere in the Midwest who was using it kind of against he was Republican, using it against the Democrats, right, and you know saying something foolish. That then took hold. So I reached out to one of the women I know in our town who's the chair of our school board, and I asked her. I said do they have litter boxes in the high schools? And she says to me are you drinking? I mean, that was her response. So she said no. Then I reached out to another principal and I shared this with him and he said that has been making the rounds. So he said he's gone to conferences where you know, national conferences where this is being discussed.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 8:27

Then I actually went. I mean I didn't stop there, I went to the Department of Health, because I work there too, and I said, okay, what would happen if someone needed to put a litter box in the school. Wouldn't they need to have it cleared with the health department? And they said yes, it would at least have to go through, they'd have to have that approved. Then I checked with some journalist friends of mine and said you guys cover school board meetings.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 8:47

If this were to happen, it would have to go through the school board and you'd cover this Right. And they said you're joking. If that was happening, front page of the newspaper. And then I said too, even though kids are not supposed to have their cell phones in school, they do. I have never seen a photo. So if you, you don't think these kids, if there were litter boxes in the bathroom, they would be taking pictures and it'd be all over Instagram or on Tik TOK or Snapchat. And kids don't want to go to the bathroom, let alone they're going to go in a litter box. I'm like what the actual heck?

Tracy: 9:19

So that's how I actually using it too. I think are really hard. Oh my God you guys.

Kerri: 9:25

I'm gonna have to share this story because it's it's so similar to this and it's been on my mind recently. So one of our local towns it was on like the internet newspaper, I see on Facebook apparently had done a capital project and they were going to put in for what they called private bathrooms and they were going to keep what they called the gang bathrooms, so multi-stall bathrooms.

Jodie: 9:51

They called them a gang bathroom. Oh, that's bad naming.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 9:55

I don't know that describes what happens to them, though I think Right.

Kerri: 9:59

So it seemed that there was some uproar over this happening. I don't know if it was that the public didn't get to vote on this change. That was the issue. It felt a lot like it was. They didn't want the private bathrooms in the school. And I just got to thinking like God, I want a private bathroom. If I go to the bathroom a million times over, give me a private stall, right, right, exactly. And then it turned out that the school district had to have a public. They ended up not that they had to, they ended up having a public meeting this week, I believe, and people were celebrating that they had stopped the private bathrooms from coming. Well, hooray.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 10:45

I mean, if you need a bandwagon, there you go. I'm being sarcastic and it's so funny because I'll share the story about the litter boxes and all of the steps I took to debunk it. And I will always still have someone in the audience who will say, nope, it's happening at blah blah blah school. And I'm like I don't, did you not hear what I just said to you? It's not happening anywhere.

Tracy: 11:05

No Jodi's on a school board. Can you imagine if somebody came in and said, can we put a?

Jodie: 11:09

litter box in the back. It's unsanitary it's, but I have heard that they don't use them. They want there for comfort, but they don't use them. That's what I've heard too. Is that true, Pauline?

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 11:20

No, that's not true either. But I also heard someone told me that they're using them in the classrooms in case they have a lockdown situation. In case there's an active shooter situation and you're locked in your room for a while, they at least have a litter box to use. And I said no one's doing that. You're in a room full of 20 kids or 30 kids and it's like you know what we're in lockdown. Let me go over here and drop trial in this litter box, come on, yeah, no, that's not true either. No, no one's had that. Now, the only way you might have that is if your school had a cat, like they had a mascot cat or something in the science class. I mean, I don't know, but even then I don't see that's not happening. People are not using litter boxes.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 12:02

Now whether they do at home. I don't know. That's not a conspiracy. I need to debunk what you do in your home is what you do in your home. But that's one of the things that I hear and I'm going into conspiracy theory territory here so we can talk about, like, the difference between, maybe, disinformation and what constitutes a conspiracy theory. So I mean, disinformation or fake news is essentially anything that's not true Conspiracies. Take it a step further and it's like you're trying to almost form this like cult-like group of folks who really are believing some of these fringe theories that, no matter what you say to them, they're going to move the goalposts and ask you to find a different level of truth. So, okay, you say that there are. They're going to move the goalposts and ask you to find a different level of truth. So okay, you say that there are no litter boxes. Well, now I want you to prove it by X, you know, or whatever it might be.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 12:52

Or another example is I don't know if you guys I shouldn't promote someone else's podcast, but Tiffany Dover is dead is a podcast about the what are the nurse, the first nurses who had the co, who got the COVID vaccine, and I don't know if you remember that they were promoting that. So they had them on screen on like live TV, getting the vaccine, and she apparently has a condition that if she gets too stressed out she will pass out. So she here, she is on camera, gets the vaccine and she passed out, but she had the misfortune of passing out off camera. So then when she came to, she explained her situation this is what happens name the condition. But then the conspiracy theorists jumped in. Okay, she was off camera, so therefore they replaced her with someone different. And that's not really her. She's really dead and no matter what this woman did, it didn't matter. Like she tried to have.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 13:45

I think they found some pictures of her on her Instagram and people were commenting like, oh well, her hair looks like it's a different color and she looks like she's heavier and I'm like right, a stylist and pizza. I mean, come on, you know. So, no matter what you do, it's almost like you're not going to get some of those folks. So, as much as I can tell you some things to do, to talk to people, if you've got people who are believing some of those really fringe ideas, you're probably not. There's probably not a lot you're going to do, aside from like some kind of weird intervention. But honestly, you know, if you've got people believing the moon, the moon landing didn't happen or the earth is flat, I I don't have anything to help you.

Kerri: 14:27

My response to something like that is usually well, that's your truth.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 14:34

Good for you. And, honestly, most conspiracy theories are harmless really. I mean, most of them are, if you want to believe that aliens exist, although and here's what's dangerous the US government just declassified some of the documents related to that. So here I am like, oh no, no, conspiracy theorists are going to think that maybe other conspiracy theories are true, you know, but conspiracy theories probably started with like a little kernel of truth and most of them are harmless. You want to sit in your backyard waiting to be beamed up? You're probably fine, you know, unless it's like February in Buffalo, I guess maybe not fine, but nothing's going to happen, you're good.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 15:03

You know, it's like february in buffalo I guess maybe not fine, but nothing's gonna happen, you're good. You know it's when they get dangerous, when people start to do things that, uh, you know, maybe like stalking or killing people, I mean, then then we get to, you know, then it gets dangerous. Or you know other conspiracies too, like the fact that the holocaust didn't happen or sandy hook the sandy hook shooting didn't happen. I mean, come on, that's just, that's so hurtful to those families and those folks who were involved that it's not, that's not okay I was just gonna say.

Mary: 15:32

New this week is I heard this in a staff meeting. He said the ship running into the key bridge was a terrorist attack, and so I was waiting.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 15:43

Everything that happens. I'm like where's the conspiracy? Because it's coming Like the wildfires in Hawaii alien attack. I don't know if you heard that. Yeah, I was waiting. I hadn't heard the conspiracy. Thank you, mary.

Mary: 15:55

Now I've got it. It's hot off the press. It happened Wednesday.

Kerri: 16:00

What I read was that it happened to disrupt our supply chain purposefully.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 16:05

We can't even make mistakes anymore, can we?

Tracy: 16:08

Really can't.

Jodie: 16:10

You just can't. I heard the Sandy Hook one that that didn't happen, and I also heard 9-11 didn't happen.

Tracy: 16:18

Oh goodness, you know talk about like a scary thing happening. We were in a very small town. My kids were in high school and they all shared a history teacher and they came home and we're eating dinner together, having family dinner, and one of them starts talking about 9-11 and all of them covered that in history. They weren't in the same class, but the way that it was covered they all left their class believing that it didn't happen. So here we are at the dinner table trying to explain to like 14, 15 and 16 year olds that like, oh, it did, yes, it did, and we need to talk to your history teacher now.

Jodie: 16:56

I'm sorry. What was the reason for lying to them?

Tracy: 17:00

Yeah, I believe that teacher truly believed that Jodi, I mean that teacher. Then, like in the next couple years, had some really severe issues happen. There was like a high-speed chase and ended up arrested and his belief in 9-11 wasn't the only thing going on, but it took like a deep dive of okay, we need to really talk about this then. Yeah.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 17:23

What I do see that I think is really heartening, though, is the folks from Sandy Hook actually suing, like Alex Jones and his podcast were the ones that were really trying to, were really, you know, pushing that narrative, and they sued and won a nice chunk of change.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 17:38

Now, of course, they weren't doing it for the money, but the more that happens and it's not likely to happen that's incredibly costly to go and do something like that. I'm also thrilled that Dominion Voting sued Fox News for all of the all of the lies and so on associated with that that impacted their business. I also worked the polls at in our local town because I thought I can help out if I you know, if I can help out, and we're in a very Republican area, and I remember one guy actually walked in and he was walking around the voting machine because he wanted to make sure. He thought he saw that it was plugged in, it's electric, and he said this is, you know, they can tap into this and this is not safe and secure. And I said there is no Internet here, we have no Wi-Fi, like it's plugged into the wall, so there's power. But he was really concerned about voting and that his vote wouldn't count and I thought, you know, I don't know what to say to you. So he voted though.

Tracy: 18:32

I'm glad he ended up voting.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 18:36

Or maybe not.

Mary: 18:37

I have mixed feelings about that because I know who he voted for.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 18:39

So I'm like well you know what? Maybe it is connected to the, to the.

Mary: 18:42

I'm joking, that's not okay, turn around, come back tomorrow, it'll be better.

Tracy: 18:50

I mean. That brings up a whole other point, though, like when there's people in power that are continuing to just perpetuate things that are absolutely untruths, and because they are people in power, it becomes really dangerous. I feel like I'm a little bit nervous about this election, to be honest.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 19:07

I'm really nervous too, and I'm watching it very closely because, first of all, when you start saying everything is fake news that doesn't agree with your point of view, or that's pointing out some of the some of your faults and so on, that's problematic. It doesn't make it fake news. Maybe you're just an ass. Yeah, when people start saying fake news, even worse is when people start saying things like oh, this is a witch hunt. Okay, it's not even a little bit of witch hunt. You just don't. People don't agree with you and they're calling you out on some of your lies or some of the bad things perhaps you're doing, and suddenly you're painting this picture of you're so persecuted. No, you're lying, you're an ass. You know these things aren't true. So, yeah, it does become dangerous. It's also very dangerous, I think, too.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 19:48

I keep reading more and more about the disinformation folks who are creating disinformation campaigns that are not from the U? S. They're coming from other countries and they're creating these campaigns because they know that many of us are gullible. Now I will say this, though I did read a few studies fairly recently. There was a meta study that was done taking a look at how impactful some of the lies on Facebook are some of the disinformation particularly related to politics and political party in elections, and they don't have the impact people think they do, because generally think I mean, if you ask yourselves, you probably know who you're voting for in November there's probably not much that's changing your mind, and there probably aren't a lot of people who are still undecided at this point, so it might not have that same impact.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 20:39

I worry, though, that it's going to rile people up in a way. So, instead of them maybe swaying their opinion in terms of who they're voting for, is it going to rile them up to cause violence or, you know, to their neighbors, to you know, another January 6th situation? You know that's what I worry about that there's going to be violence. There's too much hate, so much hate and not a lot of understanding, and one of the things I try to share with people is that, even if you disagree on your opinions, there's got to be something you have some agreement about.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 21:13

I think it's pretty safe to say we all want to be safe, we all want our families to be safe, we all want to have our loving families, we all want friends, we all want a home, whatever that looks like, we all need food and shelter and water. We all want to have our loving families, we all want friends. We all want a home, whatever that looks like. We all need food and shelter and water. We all need these sort of basic things. So let's start there. How we might get there or how you get beyond, that might be different, but if we can all agree on those things, I think we can at least perhaps have more of a dialogue. The problem is, we don't really have dialogue anymore.

Kerri: 21:44

That's my worry. My worry is that there's there seems to be so much information and a lot of people that don't know whether information is true or not that they have just checked out, like I don't even care if it's true or not. Like, yeah, like I read one of your newsletters that talked about the scrolling. Like that's exactly it. You just see it, you scroll by it. You don't really pay a lot. Okay, there's another theory. There's another theory. I'm just afraid that there are so many people that are just kind of like checking out, and then the election is going to come, and then what are they going to know? What are they going to base a vote on? Are they going to vote, you know? Like that worries me.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 22:28

So many things. Actually, we have this wonderful program that comes to campus it's called Congress to Campus and they bring a retired Republican and retired Democrat and they both come to campus and they have a dialogue and it's fantastic and usually it's very, it's very measured and this it was as well. This was more campaign like and neither one of them is running, so it was more, you know, pitching for themselves. It was kind of odd. But there was one of the young students he's a freshman, so you're about what like 18 years old, and we were talking about how things are. So, um, everybody's just always arguing and yelling and name calling. And he said in my lifetime I've never known it to be civil. And that really scared me because I thought here's an 18 year old who thinks this is normal, this behavior is okay. And I just got chills thinking of that because that's not okay to think that. How are we going to get back to normal and civility if this is considered okay and fine and normal?

Kerri: 23:25

Yeah, it just feels to me. I'm always saying like people can't have hard conversations anymore. It's yes or no, black or white. There's no like. Let's talk about it, let's find middle ground, let's find the truth in it all, and I feel like there are so many topics that are taboo that people don't want to talk about.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 23:45

Like, I gave a talk and I was using some examples to describe some of the current disinformation that's out there, and I was using references from Gaza because it's happening, this is real world experience, and someone actually called me out on that and said I really wish you hadn't done that, you shouldn't be talking about Gaza. And I thought why the hell would I not be talking about Gaza? It's real. It's not as though I said go Israel or go Hamas. I mean, it was completely. This is some of the disinformation that we're seeing coming out of that area. This is, you know, kind of debunking it. This is where it originated, and blah, blah, blah. And of course, I'm going to use current examples. Why wouldn't I use current examples? And so then you get into the whole cancel culture, which is not, you know, or the whole you know you can't have conversations about certain things and oh my gosh, you said the wrong word and oh, chaos.

Tracy: 24:40

And you know you've triggered me and who knows what else I mean just yeah, oh yeah, oh, you brought up a a dark place here. This isn't good you said the word witch hunt and that's like the exciting part of of what I wanted to talk about tonight. So can you tell me a little bit where that originated? And when I hear a male politician say witch hunt, it infuriates me do you know.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 25:00

So I'll tell you a funny story before I do that. So I don't know. I'm a practicing witch. I I practice Wicca. So I am a witch and folks at work know this. And I actually had a man. He was in my office and people were kind of ripping him apart because he well, he was an idiot. And he actually said in front of me, he said I feel like this is such a witch hunt and I thought is that right? Is that right?

Mary: 25:21

Is that?

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 25:21

right.

Jodie: 25:22

Is that what you think this is Anyway?

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 25:24

so that aside, he was not witch, he was just you do stupid things. It's not a witch hunt. You need to be held accountable. But if we want to talk about historic witch hunts, what I find so interesting about that is primarily women. There were some men who were involved in the persecution and the witch hunts, but it was primarily women, and none of them is what you would describe as a witch. These were women who were powerful in one way or another, outspoken, perhaps, seen as assertive and aggressive, had some kind of power, like they were usually people who were healers, so they could do things men couldn't do right, so they were able to go and harvest herbs that could cure you. When you've got all of these really learned men who are supposed to know science and they know all about vaginas and things, and here.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 26:10

They are being outdone by these women and you can't have that because men are so powerful. And it also then became if you didn't like something your neighbor did, you could just blame them for any random thing and make them a scapegoat, and people would believe this. So that's where we see the historic witch hunts and you see them, I mean in the US. Of course, we all know Salem, but they happen throughout Europe and they're still happening, and I actually wrote this down. I wanted to remember this and I find this funny, coming from this organization. The Global Pontifical Mission Society has declared August 10th to be the World Day Against Witch Hunts. So the fact that we need to have a World Day Against Witch Hunts and, by the way, the 10th is the day after my birthday Coincidence?

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 26:56

I don't think so, but we see this now Anytime someone is trying to you know, ridicule you or seemingly undermine you or point out some falsehoods that you've said, it becomes a witch hunt. And that's not what this is. You're not persecuted. I mean, let's think about what happened to these women. These women were burned, they were drowned, they were tortured. You know that's not what's happening to you. You are just being called out in your lies or your disinformation and you want to just defer, you know, to kind of dispel that somehow. And that's what's happening with witch hunts.

Tracy: 27:36

Salem.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 27:42

There are still some places in the world that you can be accused of a witch and they will. You can be tortured. It's happened. I think one of the more recent cases. There are some that are happening in Africa. There was one in like Saudi Arabia. Actually, it's illegal. I want to say Saudi Arabia is one of the countries where it's illegal to be a witch, which is interesting. But and again, how are you defining witch? Like I mentioned that, I'm a practicing witch.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 28:09

I practice Wicca. It's a very nature-based religion, but that's not what any of these women necessarily practice. They were primarily Christian now, or practicing, you know, like tribal religions or what have you. But you still see it. Now People are being killed or tortured because they're allegedly witches. You know, and it happens with kids. They have sometimes with kids too, they they think they've got the devil in them, and then you know so, in order to get the devil out, they have to do you know who knows what their awful, horrible practices, and sometimes the people die, end up dying, and this is still happening. It's shameful. I don't hear about it as much in the States. In the States, when you hear witch hunts, you hear people talking about it in the context of oh, you know, you're coming after me and I've done no wrong.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 28:56

It's a witch hunt you know, but there are still, legitimately, people being tortured and killed for being alleged again, alleged witches. Because they're not witches, they're just kids or they're just women who have power. We can't let women have power. I think that should be the message, right? They cannot have power. Don't give it to them. I'm being completely sarcastic I could not tell.

Jodie: 29:24

One of my favorites that.

Tracy: 29:26

I don't even know if it's true, but somebody said that women were not allowed to have pockets back in the day this was a Facebook thing because they would carry around spells and whatnot if they had pockets. I don't know if it was true, but if they had pockets they'd be witches.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 29:43

You know what? I don't know if that's true or not, but it makes sense that someone did believe that Because you got to put your herbs somewhere.

Tracy: 29:51

I mean, why were we making clothes without pockets? We were making the clothes.

Kerri: 29:56

Mary, we know your mom likes a pocket. We know where you come from.

Mary: 30:00

My mom, then, is a witch.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 30:04

You know we might all be witches. We might all be witches. We're all very powerful, women First of all. Didn't men have pockets too? What were they doing with them?

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 30:14

Watches, pocket, watches, pocket watches that's what I find I find so interesting with that too, because you know some of the things that they were accusing the women of the men were doing too, and what I actually get a kick out of. Not that I think this is particularly funny, I think it's bizarre and absurd. Some of the tests that they use to determine if you were a witch or not, so they might throw you in the bike, put rocks in your pocket so they had pockets put rocks in your pockets and toss you in the water. And if you sank, you were not a witch. And toss you in the water. And if you sank, you were not a witch. And if you floated, you were a witch. Well, think about what happened you sank. By the time they realized that you weren't floating, you were dead.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 30:53

I mean, so who thought of this? Right, if you had a third nipple, which sometimes happens, I mean, you know nature if you had birthmarks, that maybe looked a little bit devilish, I mean, it was just all of these different things that you could be accused of. And then what did they do? If they thought you had the devil's mark, a third nipple or a birthmark, they would strip you down in the town square so everybody could see you. So shame. You know, here's this powerful woman. We've got to shame her as much as we possibly can. You know that's not a happy topic either.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 31:25

We should talk we need to, not that any of this is intended to be. I mean fake news. Witch hunts and conspiracy theories are not happy topics. I mean there's, you know they just aren't.

Tracy: 31:34

But a happy thing happened because of them, right, and you were going to tell me a serendipitous story about how you wrote a book.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 31:40

Oh, okay. So I am very much a believer in science, but I also very much believe in fate. I mean, I read tarot cards, so clearly there's, you know, a little science. You know controversy. There I was.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 31:51

I belong to a couple of networking groups that are pretty exclusively for women, and this networking group, actually, I was considering getting out of because I didn't think I was getting as much from it, and so I happened one day to see one of the emails from a publisher saying you know, we're looking for women who are interested in writing nonfiction. You know, if you're interested, reach out. And I thought I've got an idea. What the hell, right? So I reached out to this woman and normally when you have these like introductory phone calls or Zoom calls, they schedule like 30 minutes. She's scheduled an hour. So I thought, okay, you mean business, right? So I get on the call with her. And it was more than an hour that we spoke and we just clicked right away. And they have a couple of different options so they you could self-publish, or you know, if I put the book proposal together, they would actually publish, because they're a small publishing house and these are women who run the group.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 32:42

They're called Broad Book Group. They've been so fantastic throughout this process. We just had a marketing meeting today, so I'm so excited to get to get things out there. I'm already working on the second book, which is going to be all about witch hunts, just so you know, and my working title is Burn the Bitches, and now I don't know if that'll be the final title, but I gave that to them and they said oh my gosh, that's fun Because we have to do all the market research to determine all of this. But working with them has been fantastic and they the two women who are the principals in the organization were in regular publishing, like regular larger book publishing, and they wanted to understand their authors and work with their authors in a much better way and that really resonated with me like women helping women and really getting to know who it is you're working with and being supportive. That is something that I really cherish and I value with them. So broad book group I highly recommend them.

Tracy: 33:38

That's amazing, amazing. So where can we find your book?

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 33:42

your first book. Right now it's for pre-order. So if you go to my website data, doyencom, d-a-t-a-d-o-y-e-n-n-ecom uh, you can order it, you can get it. I mean, if you just went to amazon or goodreads or uh target, I forget, on my website I've got all the links to the places you can buy the book. But yeah, it's coming out in just a few short weeks and you are my very first podcast, my very first interview to talk about the book. So I'm excited. And you know what's exciting about that? This room full of women. So, once again, women supporting women. I love it. That's the way it is.

Tracy: 34:18

There you go that is the way to go and I think in the, you know, in the last year, have we been doing this for a year or two?

Kerri: 34:25

it's like we've just been doing this forever.

Tracy: 34:27

I think we're approaching two. Okay, it's like we've just always done this, but maybe not um flies doesn't it, the older you get too.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 34:37

Like the older you get, I'm like, oh, that happened last year and it was like 30 years ago, you know, I mean and then people look at you like you have three nipples on your face, witch. You're a witch. Put rocks in her pockets, get her in the water.

Tracy: 34:54

That's definitely what we have found that by elevating each other's stories. It's the way that we're going to change things and that's the way that we'll make a difference. To fight, I think, against disinformation, violence, and it's creating communities of women, because I think that's how we heal.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 35:09

Well, and it's so funny because most of the people who approach me after talks and things are women too, because we're the ones that have to answer questions right and have to do all of the work. And I actually am working. I haven't it's not quite up on the website yet, but I'm going to put a couple of different workbooks together, because the common questions I get are how do I identify if something is disinformation? And then how do I talk to people? Now again, if you are a conspiracy theorist, don't waste too much of your bandwidth, but if people are just seeing something, how do you get through that conversation? And the book goes into that. But I'm going to pull out some workbooks and I'm also thinking I might have, you know, small groups, like if people want to have a small class or something where we talk through some of these things, or people come in with you know the latest conspiracy theory, the latest piece of disinformation, and they want me to kind of unpack it. There's so much and it's so interesting to me because I also I don't know if I can get off on this soapbox, but I'm not a fan of censorship Everybody wants to ban things, so it's because then what happens is people say, well, who's the one who's going to do the censoring, who's the one who's going to determine if something is disinformation or not? So when you have these organizations saying Facebook should go through and not post things that aren't true, or Twitter should do well X or Instagram or what have you, yeah, I don't think things should be there. But when we start pulling things off, then people start wondering okay, are you pulling it off because you're hiding something? Are you pulling it off Because it's not true? It goes into this whole spiral that I don't think is necessary.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 36:44

I think our solution to this and it's not something that's easy, but we need better education, we need better literacy. We need science literacy, health literacy, media literacy. I mean, pick a literacy. We need it. And we need education where we're not teaching kids that 9-11 didn't happen. That's ridiculous, you know so. And again, this isn't something that's going to be, that's going to end anytime soon. This, like COVID, it's going to stick around. The infodemic is going to stick around. So we need to figure out how to maneuver through it, and my answer is education, and it's a long-term solution. It's not something we're not solving this problem tomorrow.

Mary: 37:22

No problem tomorrow? No, so, pauline, you'd said that you have some tips and tricks when you're confronted with some disinformation. Well, I started to write down. You said your first stop is Google, but then I know that there's a logarithms in there that are going to, you know, come up with things that are going to appeal to me and that are going to back up, perhaps, the information that I want to see. So what other tips do you have?

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 37:47

I say take a look at the source of the information. So, is the source something reputable? Take a look at who the author is. Is that author someone who's reputable? Is it someone? So, for example, if you have someone writing about COVID, is that person a medical doctor or are they, you know, john in the basement?

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 38:08

Take a look at the date that something was published. That's key also in terms of information. So, if we want to think about COVID, if I were to look at something from 2020, that would even be outdated. That was just four years ago. So you want to take a look at the most recent. If you can, take a look at who's funding that particular research or the article, because I have a fabulous example. It's like the dairy organization in Canada I won't get the exact name right and they were sponsoring some research that came out that said oh, milk is good for you. I'm like, really Sponsored by the dairy. I'm like, of course, they're going to say that. So you want to make sure you're taking a look at those things.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 38:46

Then the next question is people always ask me too well, how, which I know is so incredibly difficult. I recommend AllSides. They will go through and take the news of the day and they will tell you if it's left, leaning right, leaning or more in the center. And I really like that because sometimes, you know, you generally think of like CNN is left, fox News is right, and sometimes they'll kind of lean into the center and you know, like Wall Street Journal is a bit more right, new York Times is a bit more like, but then there are some that are in the center that you can kind of unpack that way. There's another organization there are many organizations actually that are really really unpacking disinformation in a way that I don't have the manpower to do necessarily. So I recommend, like newslitorg, politifact.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 39:47

Politifact is also really a very good source if you're trying to find information and if you have things like photos or videos, you can do reverse image search in Google and it will tell you like where that image or video may have first shown up. So what we're seeing too with this information is people reusing, recycling photos and videos. I'm a huge fan of recycling, but not in this case. So in the example I mentioned about Gaza, some of the photos they're using now were actually used in Syria about nearly 10 years ago and then reused again in Libya, and now they're being used in Gaza, so that's an example of them reusing some of these photos. But Google has a really great reverse image search that you can do and some other tools that are really helpful. So those are some of the things that I generally recommend. Now you don't have to do all the deep dive that I'm doing. Reach out to me, I'll help you out.

Mary: 40:36

I'll tell you what you might be the easy button. There you go.

Tracy: 40:40

As you were talking, I had an epiphany. So, like I don't know, five or 10 years ago, catfish came out on MTV and we all learned how to figure out if somebody was catfishing you, and we learned about reverse imaging and we learned how to take a deep dive to see if somebody was a real person. So it gives me hope that we know how to do this. We'll eventually be able to figure out if somebody's catfishing us on the news. We can debunk it.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 41:03

Well, now let me pee in your cornflakes. Here's where things are going to get more complicated. Artificial intelligence, right, so there are. With all of these AI tools, it's becoming a bit more difficult, so you just have to be very careful. And the AI tools now you can a lot of times tell if something's been doctored, but they're going to get better, and so we really need to worry about that and figure that out. But you're right, I mean, there are a lot of tools, but I also suspect that there are going to be people that are smarter than me who are working on things behind the scenes that we're going to be able to use to be able to identify that within AI too. I'm not programming anything, so I'm sure there are people who are working on this. So we have, you know, the good angel and the devil on either shoulder, and those folks are, you know. Hopefully the angel wins.

Mary: 41:54

You know, I'm thinking about the last time that we gathered and, carrie, you got a text, that a link of something, that said, oh, they're dropping migrants off at the Olean Center Mall. We went on with our day. I go to work and my boss says, did you hear that they're dropping migrants down in Olean, near St Bonaventure? And I thought, gosh, it's the second time I heard that. It just sounds a little bit off, like how could that be true? And then so I thought, well, I'll just Google it and see. And then you had the mayor of Olean saying this wasn't true, the picture that was being an old picture of migrants near a bus, so on and so forth. But I thought, wow, okay, here's a. Here's a local example of getting people stirred up, because certainly the migrant issue is a hot topic, the left and the right.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 42:55

And I would argue that's a witch hunt.

Tracy: 42:57

Yeah, I believed it, mary. Until this very minute I was like, oh yeah, if somebody had asked me if migrants were an alien, I would be like, oh yeah, carrie got text. Never even.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 43:08

Care before you share. I hope you didn't share that with anybody.

Tracy: 43:11

I did not share it, but in my mind, if somebody had asked, I would have been like oh yeah, I remember that.

Kerri: 43:15

If somebody had asked, I would have been like oh yeah, I remember that I shared it with them because I got it. Well, I was like it was instant yeah.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 43:22

Like what and I want to caution that's actually the immigrant story is a really good example of probably one of our modern day witch hunts. Right, I mean because we don't understand these folks. We don't know. I think, if we actually stop to think about the humanity of this and why folks are leaving their countries and why they're coming here and thinking about them as people instead of political pawns, that might give us pause. And so I look at that situation as very much a witch hunt like we're very much ostracizing these people and why, you know, not necessarily because they have power, but we don't know who they are, we don't understand them. They're very much the other. Don't know who they are, we don't understand them, they're very much the other. So, you know, we just let's keep them at arm's length and let's just you know, we don't need to be thinking about that.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 44:08

Yeah, so driven by fear. Fear drives a lot fear drives a lot of disinformation. People don't want to be in a state of fear, they want to know something, they want to belong to a group. I mean they, just they. They need to have less fear and they want easy answers. They don't want anything complicated.

Tracy: 44:20

I don't Give me the easy answer. I think you know, maybe it's Brene Brown that talks about our brains being hardwired for story. So we're constantly trying to make the easiest story. We want a good beginning, middle end.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 44:32

Right, and we are also fearful of what we don't understand, you know. So, when we see people that maybe are different from us, we're like I don't, you know, instead of asking questions and maybe having a conversation, it's like just stay away. Stay away, you're going to take something that I have, that I need, and or you know, whatever the narrative might be.

Jodie: 44:50

Yeah, it's funny. You were talking about how they're dropping off immigrants in Olean. A lot of times if I'm on Facebook, they will show these stories, and this one I remember. They were talking about a building in Hinsdale, an apartment building in Hinsdale, new York, and this is happening in your town. There's no apartment building that that building is not in Hinsdale, new York.

Jodie: 45:13

My town is small enough that I know all of the buildings in Hinsdale and that's not even here Like. So you know, if they're saying that in Buffalo or in Rochester, people are going to believe it because oh wow, that's happening here Because they don't know all of the buildings. It must be true, it's got to be true. It was on Facebook, it has to be true. Right, it's like a 10-story building in Hinsdale.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 45:38

Yeah, exactly.

Jodie: 45:39

Exactly, that doesn't happen.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 45:41

Well, it's interesting. There's a quote. I'm going to bastardize this quote, so I'm going to have to paraphrase from Fred Rogers. We all know Mr Rogers and he says something to the effect of there is no one you can't love once you know their story, right? I mean, you have to be able to find something to love in people once you know their story. And I think that we don't always take the time to know people's stories. We're all fascinating, right. We all have some, even though we might not think so. I hear people's stories and I'm like God, I'm really boring compared to that. But I mean, even I have a story, right? But you know, I think it's understanding we don't have a lot of that, and that's I.

Mary: 46:16

That's terrible similar to that. I've also heard the phrase it's hard to hate up close.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 46:21

Have you guys seen those psas for stop jewish hate? They're outstanding. If you've not seen them, I highly recommend them. So if you googled like stop jewish hate, you'll see there's. There are two that I know uh specifically, but take a look at them. They're so well done I'm just.

Kerri: 46:40

I can't stop thinking about you saying that you love science and that you also do tarot cards, I know yeah I love that about you. I just wonder how that balances for you okay, well, here that's.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 46:57

You know. I actually just did a talk about like science and spirituality working together and I can still believe in science, because guess what? Science hasn't explained everything yet, right, and there are still things that we don't know. Like we think we've got all the answers to everything, but there are still things that we don't know. There are so many people who claim to have psychic powers.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 47:18

Now I read tarot cards. I call myself intuitive. I wouldn't tell you I'm psychic. But there's something like when you take a walk in nature, do you ever get a feeling? Or when you're chatting with someone, do you get goosebumps? There's something to that and we haven't explained it yet and, quite honestly, I kind of hope we never do do like, I hope we never find out if ghosts are real or not or if you know some other paranormal things, because I kind of like that mystery of it and once you've explained it, then you know um or why I can read, why I can read tarot cards and I can get answers for people, and I don't know why I can't explain that right, you know.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 47:56

So science hasn't explained everything, but I think science and religion can coexist Because, again, absent an answer, you fill it with maybe, fable, perhaps, or fill it with myths. So why not?

Kerri: 48:11

Yeah, they go together. You fill it with what feels best. Right, Right, right.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 48:16

And that might be different for everybody, and that's what's interesting too hearing people's stories about that. Yeah, no, very much science and very analytical, but at the same time, you know, creative and spiritual. Yeah, I love that thank you.

Tracy: 48:32

I feel like I could listen to you talk forever. Pauline, you're're respectful of your time. Oh my gosh, I could talk all night.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 48:39

I don't have anything to do which tells you my life. I have so little going on in my life.

Tracy: 48:47

Where can I hear you talk? You just said you gave a talk on spirituality and science. I would come listen to you talk on spirituality and science. Where did you do that?

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 48:56

Well, you know what that I did with a colleague of mine from St Bonaventure, so he's a math professor and we had tag team before because we were I keep bees also. So he did like the math of the beehives and the geometry and I just talked about keeping bees and it was well-received and I said we need to do another talk. And he talked about like the fractals in nature, which was ridiculously fascinating, and I said I'm going to talk about spirituality and how spirituality exists in nature and how it can coexist with science. Actually, that might be recorded. I'll see if I can't get you a copy, cause it's kind of yeah, he first of all, he did a better job.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 49:32

He did a better job than me. His talk was, so he's fantastic. But yeah, no, I'm trying to. My publisher actually said Pauline, why don't you put your speaking engagements on your website, like normal people who know marketing do? So I have to. So I'm going to be doing that, but I do have a couple of conferences coming up and once the book comes out, I mean I think I'll be at little indie bookstores and things, so, particularly within a certain radius. So I'll let you guys know for sure, and you can come and see me in person. But I know we coach students at the university on interview skills, right, and so so many are done over Zoom and we're hearing now that employers are asking people to stand up so they can see them. So I've got like my, like my pajama pants, but I've got like a nice turtleneck, so I have no idea why I decided to share that with you, but anyway it's.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 50:22

You know you'd have to see me.

Mary: 50:23

I'll have a bra on at the thing and I'll have pants and stuff, don't take that out of the podcast or not.

Tracy: 50:30

I mean, I don't really I'd love to keep that in the podcast I know that's completely up and had their full suit on, I might not hire them, I know right?

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 50:41

Well, first of all I said if someone asked me to do that, I wouldn't want to work there, Like that's creepy, Because would you do that in person? Would you say, stand up and twirl? No, you wouldn't. That's disturbing. That is very weird, I'd actually tell you no.

Jodie: 50:59

If tell you no, if you said that, I'd say no, that's not what I'm gonna do. So full disclosure. I've been trying to take my bra off during the podcast, so I keep tipping that I've already got my arms out. Okay, it's so wrong, pull it down. So if you're, if you're, a bra taker, offer I am, you are my person. Are you kidding?

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 51:15

I work from home so much, my boobs are at my belly button right now like I haven't worn a bra. When I have to put one on, I'm like, really, I have to determine whether or not it's bra worthy, honestly I agree oh my goodness. Yes, are you worth shackling my breasts yes, yes, yes.

Tracy: 51:36

My husband came home the other night, was going to ask me if I wanted to go to the store where them walked in. He goes oh, your bra's off and walked right back there was.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 51:44

There's a couple they do some really fun stuff on. I think they start on tiktok, but I watch it on instagram because I, you know, I'm one of those people and he he was actually asking his audience. He's like is this actually a thing, ladies? Because I guess he came home and his wife had taken her broth and he's like oh, do you want to go out for dinner? And he's, and she says I already took my broth.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 52:04

And he says why is that a problem? And oh, my God, you the comments. You had to read the comments, you can imagine what they were.

Jodie: 52:20

They're like dude you don't know.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 52:21

You don't know shit.

Jodie: 52:22

Yes, she took her bra off, go get takeout, Like that's what's happening right now. So did the talk that you gave with the guy from Bonner's. Did you do it at St Bonaventure?

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 52:28

They have what they call it's science on tap. So they used to do it at Four Mile but now they started doing it at the old library and I don't know that they really publicize that more publicly. They do it. It's like the third Thursday of the month. I'm not remembering. It's not a Thursday. I want to say it's the third Thursday, but that might not be right. And interestingly, we were supposed to do it the third Thursday in February. We bumped it up to the second Thursday because I was scuba diving in the Philippines but then something else got screwed up and they had to move it to. It was like February 2nd and I said that's really interesting that I have to do a talk on February 2nd, because when we celebrate the time between winter and summer, like the midpoint between winter and summer, I said and we weren't supposed to present today, so science and spirituality working together yes, serendipitous, I love it.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 53:22

Oh, serendipity there's something to that, and again, I hope we don't ever have the answers. Well, we probably won't in our lifetime, so that's fine. If they figure this out in 100 years I'll be dead, it won't matter.

Tracy: 53:31

So there you go he'll be a ghost, I know I, oh my gosh, have you seen these things?

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 53:37

So I, I give my sister my sister's younger, so statistically speaking, I'll die before her, right? So I've told her this, which she doesn't like to hear, and I'm like, I'm seven years old, like really, I'll probably die before you. I told her I want I saw this thing on Instagram where, after, after I die distribute like the Ouija board with a note saying I'll be in touch. Have you seen that? So like, share this with a handful of people afterwards.

Jodie: 54:03

I just think that's freaking fantastic.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 54:10

I love that. Can I tell you another funny story? So I was driving up to see my mom she lives in Marilla Right and on one of the roads there was a coffin for sale on like this trailer, and I'm like what the fuck, what the actual shit.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 54:27

So I go back to take a picture of it, Cause I'm like I got to post this coffin for sale, Right. So I take a picture and I go, drive off the pictures and show up on my phone. So now I'm thinking, oh my God, creepy as hell. So I drive back, take like 85 pictures this time because one of them is going to take, and so I sent it to my sister, I think I posted on Instagram and said coffin for sale, gently used, Like I mean, what are we going to do with this, Right?

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 54:48

So my husband says to me he sees this and he says, oh, I think that's a coffin trailer. I think it comes with the trailer. And I'm like what the? There's no such thing as a coffin trailer. So I'm telling my sister this she drives by with me, she was in town, she drives by and she says, I think he might be right, I think that's a coffin trailer. And I said I want you to tell me when you have ever seen a coffin on a hitch behind a car or a truck ever in your life, Right? So then I said to her you know what? When I die, this is what I want you to do Get a coffin, put it on a trailer, hitch it to a truck and put the little cans on the back. That says just dead, like just married, like just dead Perfect.

Jodie: 55:34

Oh, my goodness.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 55:36

And then send everybody a Ouija board that says I'll be in touch.

Mary: 55:42

I don't want someone to steal the idea. Well, thank you, yeah, for not cutting that out because, I don't but the just debt.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 55:49

Actually, I don't want anyone taking that either.

Tracy: 55:51

I want to be the first dead person with a coffin trailer yeah, but you know what, if you you could start packaging those now?

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 55:59

We got to look at it now I could. I could put them out in the front lawn. You'll be driving by Route 16. Be like coffin, not used, but stick it behind your truck when you're dead it does. I'll sell like just dead side, just dead with like cans hanging from it. That's what I can sell.

Tracy: 56:14

That would be awesome, can you get all the craft fairs.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 56:17

Well, and just so you guys know too, I'm actually opening a bookstore in town. Here in Franklinville I live right on Route 16 and we own my husband and I own the house next to us and we're zoned ag commercials. So I've worked with the Small Business Development Association. They helped me put the business plan together. I'm getting ready to take it to the bank to try and get a loan and I'm hoping by mid and summer I'll have this bookstore open. So I'm calling it the Beekeepers Bookshop. So I'll let you guys know I mean, and I'll be doing readings and different things here too. So and honestly, I mean, if you guys, you guys have retreats, but if you wanted to have meetings or wanted to have get togethers, it'd be that kind of space. I'm considering putting a labyrinth in and the whole shebang. Like I'm really excited about it.

Kerri: 57:00

I'm excited for you. Yeah, of course I'll be selling my book.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 57:05

You know what other books should be there right here, right here.

Tracy: 57:10

Yes, yes, yes, oh my goodness.

Kerri: 57:12

All right. So we typically end our podcast with Tracy tells us how to make tea. I don't know if you have one prepared Trace, but I think that people should tell us all their wildest when I do this story.

Tracy: 57:29

If you have one prepared go ahead, I'm going to scrap what I had. That's even cooler. So that's how we're going to make tea.

Jodie: 57:40

So just a piggy boost off of that. Um, so my mom has given me her wishes when she dies. Do you remember when we did the uh, the? I think it was our last Mardi Gras over at the Hinsdale Legion and we all had wings? Yes, yep, my mom loves my wings. She would not let me get rid of them. She said that when she dies, she wants the wings to go on her in her coffin.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 58:02

Love it.

Tracy: 58:05

Oh, my goodness, that's beautiful.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 58:06

Oh, I love that We'll sell the wings next to the just dead.

Tracy: 58:13

That's not okay. We have another small business. I love it. We're dealing small business. I love it.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 58:20

We're dealing in depth. I don't know how I feel about that.

Tracy: 58:26

Oh, thank you so much for coming, Pauline.

Pauline Hoffman, Ph.D.: 58:29

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I had a great time. You guys are wonderful.

Mary: 58:32

Thank you.