.jpg)
Spill The TEA
If you missed your initiation into womanhood, you’re not alone. Truth tellers spill the tea about the misguided trappings of what it means to be a woman. Listen in as they tackle the myths and realities of being a daughter, sister, mother, wife, and friend. Find a sense of community and inspiration with these podcast creatives. You are bound to recognize yourself in their collective experiences.
Spill The TEA
Rise Despite Self-Doubt: Conversations with Pamela Say
What if self-doubt isn't something to overcome, but rather a clue guiding us toward deeper self-understanding? In this transformative conversation, we're joined by leadership expert and Harley rider Pamela Say, who shares her journey of unlearning limiting beliefs and discovering authentic contentment.
Pamela introduces a powerful perspective: from birth, we absorb messages from others that shape our beliefs about ourselves and our capabilities. By adulthood, these inherited narratives feel like truth. The key to freedom? Embarking on what she calls "the greatest journey of my whole life" – the rigorous process of unlearning toxic messaging to discover who we truly are beneath it all.
The discussion takes unexpected turns as we explore how riding a 700-pound Harley motorcycle became Pamela's metaphor for freedom and presence. Once terrified of public speaking to the point of physical distress, she shares the technique she uses to transform this fear into confidence. Our hosts vulnerably share their own experiences with self-doubt, from career transitions to medical procedures and parenting insecurities.
We examine whether popular terms like "imposter syndrome" help us grow or keep us stuck, and dive into practical strategies for moving through fear: preparation, visualization, reframing anxiety as excitement, and perhaps most importantly, practicing radical self-compassion.
Whether you're facing a significant challenge or simply tired of the voice in your head questioning your worth, this episode offers both comfort and actionable insights. Join us to discover how connecting with others and questioning inherited beliefs can lead to the most authentic version of yourself – and why none of us would ever want to be 20 again!
Grab a warm drink and join us- we saved a seat for you. Don't forget to stay updated with Spill the TEA by following us on Facebook at Women Gathering and Growing with TEA or on Instagram at Grow with TEA.
All right, everyone, welcome back to Spill the Tea. We are very excited to continue down the road we have started with our podcast. So we've been talking about rising and going through some different steps that it takes to rise, and today we're going to talk about overcoming self-doubt and fear. We have a special guest with us today, who I'm going to throw it over to Tracy to introduce.
Tracy:Thanks, Karen. We are so well. I'm so excited that I get to introduce you today to my friend, Pamela Say. Pam and I met I'm not even going to age us like that We've known each other for a minute. I took a leadership class with her, called Leadership Allegheny. I think it might've been the first class that they did. It was a leadership class that Pam put together with a group of people and she has been just gangbusters on everything leadership since that time and it was novel at the time and she continues to do exciting things, including most recently, what I've seen her do that I can't wait to hear more about is ride a Harley. So not only is she a female leader, but she is a badass. So, Pam, if you want to take a minute and take it from there and introduce yourself, that'd be great.
Pam:That is the most exciting thing. I think, like everything else, you know, the career stuff probably doesn't matter as much to me as riding the Harley. That's been so fun. It's actually been like two years now and it's probably become the best activity of my life. It's so relaxing and like stress free and just you do feel like a badass, you know. But yeah, I obviously Tracy and I connected a long time ago. It's just been a lovely journey.
Pam:I think you know we kind of have come in and out of each other's lives as you know, life happens the way it happens, but Tracy's always this person that I don't know goes deep and connects in a really authentic way, and I feel like that's priceless. We just don't have enough of that in life. And it seems like that's what you're doing also here with your podcast and with the groups and stuff, and I'm just excited to be part of it. So, yeah, thanks for having me.
Mary:Pam, when you were describing riding a Harley, I was thinking the exact opposite. It sounds opposite. It sounds stressful and not relaxing.
Pam:I'll tell you what like the learning process was stressful. You know you're it's a 700 pound machine that you're like sitting on and you know when you're driving it's fine, but like when you're stopping and balancing and all that stuff, it's a little scary. And it's also like you, it's unlike a car. I mean, you're literally using both hands and both feet all the time to do controls, and so the learning was really stressful. But like once it clicked, it is like pure freedom. Pure like unadulterated freedom. And if you've ever had like any kind of trauma or difficulty in your life that has caused, like nerve issues or, you know, stress, anxiety, you're so in your body when you're on it that it just it's like the most present I feel with myself, because you have to be fully aware it really great like I've even heard like people with PTSD love doing it because it puts you so much in your body.
Kerri:But, yeah, really fun so, interestingly enough, we're gonna be talking about overcoming self-doubt and fear. I'm just wondering if, like, while you're riding, if you become fearful, do you have like a mantra you tell yourself? Because that's what I would be doing, I would be like repeating something probably in my head while I was yeah it's.
Pam:I don't know if I have a mantra. There definitely are fearful moments like someone might stop kind of fast and you have to hit the brake or you know, you go turn a corner and there's a pile of dirt you didn't see and you have to hit the brake or you know you go turn a corner and there's a pile of dirt you didn't see and you know the bike kind of wobbles.
Pam:There are moments like that, but it's almost like your heart beats really fast, but you don't have time to even think, you just recover and keep going. You know you're right back to yourself again. So yeah, it's good.
Tracy:It's a good activity. Okay, so the viewers aren't going to see you, pam, but, like, when I think of a woman who's driving a big Harley, I'm thinking this woman, that's got. Not that you're not muscular, you're a very muscular woman but I'm thinking of a woman who is like, got big guns and you are not much bigger. You're like my size and I just don't know if I could handle 700 pounds of a machine. I'm okay on a four-wheeler, I just don't know. I don't know there's something about a Harley and yours looks big yeah, it's really big.
Pam:It's a heritage classic it's. It's a pretty big bike like a lot of men drive them and I've test drove like street bikes which are even bigger like touring bikes and yeah, I don't know.
Mary:I mean, anybody can do it, I think that's the cool thing.
Pam:Like you, you look out in the world. You see women doing all these things and we can do anything.
Pam:You know, there was a moment, like riding on the back of Billy's bike, where I was like I want to drive my own. The thought just occurred to me and I saw a couple of women fly by when we were driving around and I was like, look at them, that's so freaking cool and I just made the decision and yeah, it's hard and scary, but I don't know, we can do anything we set our mind to. I think that's the final takeaway for me.
Tracy:Was there any moment of self-doubt, though? Once you made that decision that I want to do it, I want to have my own. There was no going back once you made up your mind.
Pam:Nope, not at all. And you know this is the thing about self-doubt. You know I feel like there's not a simple answer to it. You know, I feel like it's. We're fairly complex human beings and you know all these things we learn in our life, for our profession, and you know like we get put into certain situations. We're volunteering, we're doing whatever you know we learn all these skills and things.
Pam:But at the end of the day, outside of all of that, like we are human beings that have been through things and you know, I have this theory that when we were born, you know, we came into the world, we sucked air into our lungs for the first time and then the doctors handed us over to human beings.
Pam:And then that starts the process of all these messages like being placed upon us, and experiences. You know, some people go through a lot of adverse things when they're young I did and so by the time you reach adulthood, it you and I don't think a lot of people even think about this or attempt to do it. But you hit adulthood and you can just move forward in life with all those messages and all of those experiences and whatever you believe is a result. Or you can begin a process of unlearning and to me, that has been the greatest journey of my whole life is trying to unlearn everything from birth to adulthood and figure out what do I believe? Who am I, you know, aside from all of those messages and it's a rigorous process and I think it's lifelong. It's's not easy. For me it's been a combination of like programs that I go to therapy, a lot of introspection, walking the journey with fellow travelers and, as a result, like really coming into my own, you know, I've been doing it eight years.
Pam:I'm 48 years old, so I started this journey at 40 and it's been eight years. I am the happiest I've ever been in my entire life. Um, I, I lost my job in December. You know, successful executive, you know, ran multi-million dollar campaigns, led nonprofits and I haven't been working in three months. I'm just content. I really am. I know the right thing will come, but this journey has allowed me to settle into who I am and, as a result of like unlearning and picking myself apart and figuring out who I am and what makes me tick, the self-doubt just vanishes. There is no self-doubt. I know who I am. You know what I mean. The challenges are when I encounter people and circumstances and situations where they have a message that they want me to receive about who I am and it conflicts with who I really am, you know. So how do I handle that? And if I'm strong and settled and I'm doing, my daily inventory and I know who I am.
Pam:it's not very disruptive anymore, so I don't know. I think there's such a blessing to getting older. I'm so glad I'm almost 50. I don't want to ever be 20 years old again. This is the best time of life it really is.
Jodie:It really, really is. Wow, she is so cool. A Harley, come on, that's the dream. Wow, I would love to be brave enough to ride a motorcycle, but I don't think I ever would be. I think I was with you on that one, mary. It's scary, it's exciting, though I mean it would be really cool.
Mary:But it's not on my bucket list. I bought the back one, it's not on mine. Other drivers scare me enough too, yeah true, other drivers scare me enough to.
Kerri:Yeah, true, I was gonna say kind of going back to some of the stuff you were sharing, because what are some common roots of self doubt and how can we identify them in our own lives? And when I tried to answer that for myself, I was thinking like, well, what are the common roots? The common roots are environment, but, like everything that we interact with, and I think a lot of times we don't go back far enough to like all of the things we've been inundated with and really spend some time thinking about like why do I think this or why do I do that? Or it really does take some purposeful like reflection and time to think about some of those things, and I don't know that everyone takes the time to do that, you know you can start running on autopilot.
Tracy:Yeah, then you don't realize that you've been doing it.
Mary:I was thinking back to a time I was in my friend's wedding. It was while I was in college or shortly after. No, I was still in college and I'm a bridesmaid. I walked down the aisle and they later came up to me and said you have red blotches all over your back and they were hives. They were like nervous hives and I never knew that that ever happened to me. When I was nervous In my senior year in high school, I took a public speaking class.
Mary:I was nervous.
Mary:I didn't realize that my body was showing the audience how nervous I was, and so, thinking back to that wedding I was in it then created this self-doubt in my mind and I would get really nervous when I was doing public speaking because I felt like my body was going to tell everybody that I was nervous and it was.
Mary:You know that I don't. I'm trying to get a message across and I don't want people to be distracted by these nervous highs that I get. And so, lo and behold, yes, I'm getting them on my chest, I get them up my neck, and so, instead of like trying to avoid public speaking, I approach it more like what do I need to do to calm myself so that I don't break out. And what I've discovered is that as long as I do enough prep to make myself feel comfortable with what I'm talking about, then I have a fine time. When the topic I'm talking about I know like the back of my hand, that's never a problem. But like when I have to go in front of the you know county board to fill in for my boss, then I really have to psych myself up and and prepare for this.
Kerri:What's that I said?
Mary:I didn't know your stuff right and know my stuff. Yeah, I know and all of that and I've practiced and all that. But I can tie back to that time where I didn't even know I had a face and so you know even I'm sure interviewing for jobs as an adult.
Jodie:That'd be very hard for her, because what's the first thing they ask you? Oh, are you nervous? Like in a job interview, they always ask me that. No, no, I'm good. She couldn't even lie her way through that.
Tracy:No, I'm not nervous, oh yes you are Joanie who is asking you in an interview. Are you nervous? That's so mean. Really, I was asking you in an interview. That's so mean.
Jodie:Really Well. I haven't been asked if I'm nervous.
Mary:I have a great example. The other strategies I do is I wear like a higher necked shirt, make sure that it's not scoop. So then I'm not getting into my head about oh my God, am I blotching? But when I interviewed for this job that I have now later, my supervisor said were you nervous at all? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I was. He goes, I couldn't tell you exuded confidence.
Tracy:I know right.
Jodie:That's awesome.
Mary:I'm like I've made it.
Kerri:So does that acknowledgement negate the remembering you have of someone saying I saw you were blotchy, like because that's probably what's stuck in your head, right Like people are saying I'm blotchy, and so now this person said no blotchy, you had it right?
Mary:Yeah, I've come full circle, and do you?
Eryn:think it would have been such a pivotal moment in your life if somebody had had the decency to just, you know, ignore it. And, like you know, she is probably nervous. Let me give her the grace of walking down the aisle without this additional stress, not run right over to you, hey. Did you know that your blotch is on your back? Like must be something wrong with you, right?
Mary:Like maybe she, maybe she thought I had eczema.
Jodie:I don't know.
Eryn:Like why is that? Why? Why was that so pressing? I'm of the mindset of if it's not something that somebody can change, why bring it up Right, Unless you have a serious concern for their health right.
Jodie:She might have thought that maybe she was having an allergic reaction to something she ate or drank and so wanted to check and make sure it wasn't life-threatening. Maybe I don't know.
Mary:I don't even know who it was. Maybe another bridesmaid, but yeah but that's right.
Kerri:We're diving deep into feeding story around this person we don't know well, but that's what happens is these moments happen where one person likely says something to you and you carry it for longer than you need to and we never get out too. We don't all. I'm not going to say we never, but we don't always go back. And what's going on here, like, why am I holding on like we never, but we don't always go back? And what's going on here, like, why am I holding on? Like that was just some. You don't even remember who this person was, but what they said is held in your psyche for this long yeah.
Tracy:Because when we I mean we've worked with so many people and I'm great at confidentiality but it has nothing. I mean it has to do with my ethics, but it more has to do with the fact that I just don't remember I could help somebody and never remember them again, but it freaks me out that I've said something like that that somebody has carried forever.
Pam:If so, please fact check, it wasn't intentional.
Kerri:Where's?
Tracy:that flower they do I went to the International Women's Day breakfast this weekend Not this weekend, it was Friday and I listened to a speaker. She was great. Well, her passion was speaking out against imposter syndrome and just how irritated it makes her. And she's an executive for a bank. This beautiful, gorgeous woman, well-spoken, well-networked the person that was interviewing her was pushing back. What do you mean? Of course you don't believe in imposter syndrome. You've never felt it. And she pushed back more.
Tracy:And I think that in the last few years, imposter syndrome for me is just another way to say self-doubt. Right, it's a fancier way, and people have kind of clung to that, and I think even myself. There's been times when I'm like, oh, I think I'm having some imposter syndrome, which in the past maybe I would have called it self-doubt. But her whole speech was about how, by giving it that name and naming it, that people are embracing it, hugging it, holding it close and allowing themselves to simmer in their self-doubt rather than dealing with it, and are giving it this like, oh, I have imposter syndrome. That's why I can't. X, y and Z. What are your ladies'?
Kerri:thoughts. I have thought about those words imposter syndrome before, particularly when I took a new job recently and I kept thinking like, why are these words creeping into my head? What got me to not think of those words anymore was that I said to myself well, if I'm not doing this job, who would be and who would be better than me? Like, I can do this job, I'm totally fine. So I don't know why those words are creeping into my head, but I'm supposed to be here. It because I don't. I don't know where they came from and I was kind of thinking, you know about the transitions that we go through and like how did I get here and what have I done? And I had taken all the steps to get there and get that position and be able to do the work that I get to do and why wouldn't I be there?
Pam:You know I think back to like early career. You know, I think I took my first job out of college in 2001. So that's like 24 years ago and I felt like a huge imposter. I mean, you know, especially coming like I came out of poverty. I got into college through this opportunity program. Like my high school years, I was classified at risk. I just had like this vision of who I was as a person and I felt very less than like I definitely felt like I did not fit in that world, that I was entering into a college.
Pam:And then I start my career and I'm a single mom, I'm on public assistance. You know like I'm barely. I got a nickel and a penny in my pocket. I mean, I've got three pairs of pants. I'm rotating every week to where to work. It was just hard and like the CEO and the like, the executives, were right down the hall and you know, like I remember this this time where I like went out on a limb and asked someone in a high position if they would mentor me and they said no. I was like I mean just oh, it's confirmation like I just don't fit here and I lived in that space for such a long time and I mean not to be a broken record, but like it's really like unearthing so many things in my life that helped me move past it.
Pam:Um, I think the phrase imposter syndrome came about because it's how people feel, like you know, but it's definitely not a place to get stuck and it's a place to work through. And what I, what I learned through that process was A I do belong. I'm really smart, you know what I mean. Like I can do anything I set my mind to and actually I get to choose. Like I don't have to work in a place that's awful and I don't have to tolerate behavior that's not okay.
Pam:And you know, yes, all work environments have their challenges, but I can do the right thing, you know, even when it's hard.
Pam:But you know, like even learning all of that. I think the big lesson I took away as I got older was I'm never going to be like that. I think, like out of imposter syndrome and overcoming it, I decided that I would be like a seed planter for people you can tell. You can usually tell when someone's nervous or they're struggling to integrate. You know, or be in an environment struggling to integrate. You know, or be in an environment and like it's just life mission to create wide open spaces and make sure that people are comfortable. You know, um, because I think most of the time when people feel like that, I mean you. I think, carrie, you said it really well like there, this is all linked back. Like I don't feel like that for no reason. There's usually a reason why you know.
Eryn:I agree with you as someone who has recently started my career. So I work in a healthcare field and a lot of the people that I've graduated with you know that I work with their whole family's in healthcare. They have that like support, whereas nobody in my family was in the health care field at all. And you know it's easy to feel imposter syndrome in that way that you know do I belong here, should I be here? But then, like you said, it's always important to remind yourself like I did the work to be here. I deserve to be here, but I definitely feel that imposter syndrome as somebody who's recently started their career.
Pam:I think, especially like for me anyway, when I was younger like that's where it was real, where it felt pretty real to me. You know, like, I think, early career, getting your you know when you're not in those legacy groups, like people who have you know and there's a point to that Like if someone comes into a work environment and their mom and their aunt and their uncle and half their family have been in that environment.
Pam:they've been hearing this language their entire life, the language of health care, the words that people use the the language of health care, the words that people use, the, you know, the politics, the nuances, like that is legacy and I feel like, um, you know there's a big learning curve when you're coming into something and that's how I felt, you know, coming into college, first in my family to go to college and I came from an area, a neighborhood and a background where it was like drugs, violence, crime, you know, like mental illness. It was wild and I'm like walking into St Bonaventure like there's all these middle and upper, middle and upper class people and I'm like I don't even know the words you're using, like this language is weird. I this, this whole thing feels extremely foreign. It's like a foreign language I'm learning and that's hard, that's hard to get through, but I think, maybe self-doubt okay, here's an idea. What if self doubt is just a clue leading us to an answer about ourselves?
Pam:Like yeah, instead of it being this negative, horrible thing that we have to overcome, what if it's like a quiet whisper saying something you need to work on? You're something you need to look at? I just think it could be more of an opportunity than a bad thing.
Tracy:I agree, when you were talking to him and you were sharing about, you know, the starting your career, I was thinking where else did I feel self-doubt? And I had my oldest when I was 19. And I remember them handing him to me and I remember being allowed to go home with this new person and sitting up all night looking at him like I, I, I'm not qualified to do this. I know I'm not the only person that had that experience, so I don't know if I could do this human life and they're just like go home and you're like what?
Pam:it is pretty crazy when you think about, like, birthing a child and then they're just like see ya, it is like I have one child and she's 22 now and thankfully made it through my parenting. Um, but yeah, like I, tracy, totally relate, because I remember sitting at home in the middle of the night holding her and I was like what just happened? What is happening right now? I gotta figure this out. It's gonna be okay, the best thing.
Tracy:I remember that going away, the best thing that was ever said to me, and I don't remember that going away.
Kerri:The best thing that was ever said to me, and I don't even know who said it to me. But someone said about parenting that, like nobody knows, Every parent is just winging it. None of us really know what we're doing. We're hoping we're doing the best that we can, but we're not sure. We just keep making one decision after the other and hoping it's like not messing our kids up right, not too bad, not even, not even.
Jodie:Oh, please, let this be the right decision, but please don't let this be the wrongest decision that ever could be made. Right, this is yes, wrongest most wrong. Wrongest most wrong. Sorry, wrongest most wrong.
Tracy:I get that. I feel like wrong is better.
Pam:I feel like that just suits the conversation. Okay, good.
Mary:It seems like a good strategy. You know it's a wing it strategy when faced with something that you've never done before.
Jodie:Well, that and trial and error right.
Tracy:Yeah Right, first one was an experiment. No, but I think back to that time or times when I have felt self-doubt and I think you know one of our questions was what are things that you do to help get yourself out of that? And I try to educate myself. I try to get as much information as I can and I don't know if that is to help feel some sort of control, but I start to look for the experts and then bring the experts to myself. Anybody else have any other strategies or does anybody else employ that strategy?
Mary:Currently I have. I want to make a decision to have a LASIK surgery on my eyes, but I am very scared of the idea of it. So what I do is, besides, do research. So I, you know, I looked up to see what I can do, is I can consult with the doctor, and lo and behold, they have zoom orientations. I'm like, okay, that's something I can do.
Mary:And then I also think to myself. I try to imagine, having had the procedure or the task, or I've done the thing, how satisfied I'm going to be having had done it. And so I imagine my future. And then I also will think about how many people before me have done this Thousands, it's routine, it's. The same was true with a colonoscopy as well. Now, I mean these medical procedures, I'm afraid of the unknown. And with the colonoscopy I was also afraid of the results, because my mother is a colon cancer survivor, and so I also was afraid of that. But again, but emphasis on the but that. But again, but emphasis on the but. I said to myself Carl did it. I learned from him what he had to do and I'm going to do it. I scheduled it, and so that was a colonoscopy. So, but now I'm on the edge of. I want to get this eye surgery, but I'm I'm scared.
Eryn:I also think your self doubt. Your self doubt in this instance is also showing the bravery that it took for you to get to this position. Like you have to have so much love and compassion for yourself because you know you are in the midst of making a decision and you know that's not easy. It would be easy to just say, oh, I'm not going to think about it, like I can't think about this because it brings me stress. But you know you are bringing yourself there. You're bringing yourself to get the colonoscopy, which I'm really happy about, mary, good job.
Tracy:She says that because she had to harass me for a whole year.
Mary:yes, she says that because she had to harass me for a whole year yes, and carl and I both say it was the best sleep ever it has. It's just the prop that is terrible, but the prep is awful, erin rolls her eyes.
Tracy:Listen, you've got like 30 more years before you have to do it. This won't even be a thing for you, yeah but then they'll have the Star Trek scanner. That's right. Yeah, really.
Kerri:I'm gonna bring us back around. I was thinking like what you said, trace, I think for me. I always like to get curious about whatever it is and I don't know if it's research or just sitting quietly and really thinking about. And you know, whatever it is that I'm feeling fearful or having self doubt, and sometimes, honestly, I also come back to the point where it's okay for me to just be afraid or fearful or not want to do the thing, like that's okay too, like that's who I am and what, what my body, what my senses are telling me is no, you're not doing that thing, and that's okay too. And I always trust myself in those moments.
Kerri:And sometimes, you know, it might be like I know in the last podcast we were talking about, like climbing the pamper pole.
Kerri:For me it might just be climbing up the pole, not getting on the little platform, but if I can do that, then I've succeeded and that's where I feel good about myself. So I think those are things that are okay too, like it doesn't always have to be that you say no, you don't need to be fearful in this instance. I think it's okay to trust your intuition in some instances too and just say no, the pamper pull might be a good point where I could be like okay, carrie, are you making an honest goal for yourself? Can you push yourself farther? Can you get on the platform? Maybe not jump this time, like I can talk myself through some of those things. But again, I think it's about those getting curious about it, like where can I get to? Like I'm afraid to do it at all, so is just climbing up the pool like a good start? And then, if you ever get to do this again, maybe you get on the platform or, you know, set some steps for yourself to get past the fear, like doing the research, mary.
Tracy:So, kira, how do you? For you personally, how do you identify? I'm caught up in fear and I need to address the fear. Or this really is my intuition telling me that this is probably not a good choice for me?
Kerri:for me it's that I can't get to the. If I feel like it's intuition, it's I can't get to past, like whatever it is, I can't, I can't make another step forward. You know what mean it's that I'm stuck in a let's let's just use the pamper pole for an example. Like maybe I'm there and everything in my body is saying you cannot jump, you cannot get, you cannot. Something bad is going to happen. I just won't. I will, I would not, I would trust my physical mental, it's physical, it's mental, it's like a whole body.
Kerri:It's physical, it's mental, it's like a whole body. Something is telling me no, you can't, but if I have the time and the space. So that's through that. And I feel like the first time I probably was at the pamper pole, I was like hell, no, hell, no. But I know I pushed myself to just like go up the pole. I think is what I did. I did not get on the thing. So that was me giving myself like, okay, okay, in this moment what you can do is not go all the way into fear, you can push past it. And then I remember telling myself, if you get there and you feel like you can keep going, keep going. But I got there and I was like, oh, hell, no, I'm done. I'm afraid of heights, I'm done.
Pam:I love that. I actually like. I do love the conversation around like fear and anxiety, because even phobias and things like fear of heights, that's one thing.
Pam:But, like even now. There are times where I get like overwhelmed with like anxious energy and little anxiety, stress, fear For the most part in my life. Like the hard work I've done over these last eight years to like figure out, like I call it, connecting the dots of the past to the present, like what happened to me in the past that is expressing itself in my present today and that's helped create a lot less self-doubt in my life.
Pam:but there are times where I I can't stop it you know, like maybe I'm going into an interview and all of a sudden I've had five other interviews and this didn't happen to me. But I'm going into this interview and like I'm literally shaking, my heart is racing, like the body response just happens. And if I give it time afterwards and really kind of assess, like what was it about this one? There's usually something like there's usually a reason, there's usually something I'm not comfortable with, like maybe I knew and and actually like thinking of a specific example, I did know, like this is not the environment for me, but I did the interview anyway, and it wasn't until afterwards.
Jodie:I was like oh that's why I?
Pam:got like had this huge stress response in my body. But I loved when Mary was talking about public speaking because I started public speaking when I was really young and like early, like 20s, mid-20s and um, literally peed my pants, like I remember standing behind this podium.
Pam:They like shoved me up there you're gonna give a speech. And I was standing behind the podium and I was shaking so hard that my legs were vibrating and I peed my pants. I had no control over my bladder and I was like, well, there's a wet spot now and thank God there's a podium, because it's just there, nothing I can do. And it was so freaking bad so it wasn't like blotches but like complete full body, like anxious fight or flight reaction, and I was like I do not want to stop public speaking, I'm gonna freaking do this. And I was so pissed and I tried it a couple more times. Same thing happened and I'm like this is bull crap.
Pam:I got to figure it out and, like Tracy said, it was like nerd hat. I mean I just went to the library and I read every book I could find and I found this book called the Breakout Principle and it was like I mean you could read the whole entire book, but the long and short of it is like practice, practice, practice. And then fully distract yourself Like do other stuff for a few hours leading up to and when you get there, in the moments before when the fight or flight kicks in, have something that you repeat. So I picked the alphabet and, literally to this day, every time I have a speaking engagement, you see me giving keynote speeches to like 300 people. I am sitting in the front row waiting to be introduced, singing like A, b, c, d.
Pam:E in my head the entire time. I don't hear a word anyone says, until I walk up there because I'm like screaming the alphabet in my head. So I know it pissed my pants. It's crazy, literally.
Tracy:Wow.
Kerri:I love that story. Public speaking, I think everybody has like a moment with that where it's like how am I?
Jodie:going to get through this. People fear public speaking more than death.
Tracy:No, I was at church and the whole sermon was about reviewing the study of the top. I think he said the top 50 things that people are most scared of, and actually the first one is to be forgotten. The number one is to be forgotten. Oh, wow, yeah, and loneliness was in the top three. That makes me so sad. Yeah, one was yeah, death was in the top five. Yeah, public speaking was on there, but not as much as those. And the to be forgotten was like a gut punch.
Kerri:Yeah, it was like oh, yeah, I know, and then you think about it there. I haven't heard them recently, but I know there are statistics about like how long it does take until who you are, who you have been, is completely forgotten. Like most of us are only remembered for like 20 or 30 years after we pass. Wow.
Eryn:I know Yikes what a horrible feeling, I know.
Mary:You know, we were supposed to podcast last Monday, but Tracy had a really important engagement that she was leading or I was imagining that you were leading. I later found out that she wasn't permitted to speak, but she was preparing for it, and so I was probably projecting like a little bit of oh, like I know I would be a little nervous if I had to do that. And so I was thinking, as the hour was coming up, I'd said to Tracy what's a song that we could play where it's going to pump you up? And so we know that, pamela, that yours is the alphabet song. But before Tracy could answer, I thought I thought, okay, acdc.
Mary:thunderstruck is gonna be her song, and so I, uh, I sent her a link to that and then I listened to it and I thought, yeah, I'm pumped up for her, yes, yes, and then I wasn't permitted to speak and I had to stand in the back and look menacing.
Tracy:I was like mm. This stink eye.
Mary:I imagined the character from 101 Dalmatians that that's what you were doing.
Tracy:Oh, cruella de Vil. Yeah, I could do a Cruella de Vil. I could have wore a cape, damn yeah.
Mary:Yeah.
Tracy:Yeah.
Eryn:While you do that, something that'll really rile her up maybe not pump her up.
Tracy:is playing the song Bicycle by Queen, by Queen. That is an earworm, Jodi. It is horrible.
Eryn:It sticks in your head.
Mary:It won't stop.
Eryn:Imagine the fun me and my brothers had when we realized that it was her number one pet peeve.
Jodie:Oh, Erin, you didn't torture your mother, did you? We did?
Eryn:a little bit, I thought it was the black crows.
Kerri:No, they just suck.
Eryn:That's number two for her. Oh, okay.
Mary:More recently, I've heard someone describe like the same feeling you feel when you're afraid, like the jitters. Those, those same feelings are very similar to being excited, and so if you could reframe that, oh, it's not fear, I'm actually excited about what's about to happen, and so I think about that. When you know, anticipating prior to going up in front of a crowd that oh, I'm just really excited, and so I try to psych myself out that way just really excited, and so I try to psych myself out that way.
Jodie:That's funny, mary. I do the same thing when we're driving someplace and we either get lost or we get rerouted or roadblock or whatever. Oh, okay, well, I guess we're going to go on an adventure, yes, and just look at it as okay. This is an opportunity we wouldn't have had.
Eryn:It's a way to bring positivity into your life too. Like, oh, I really have to go, you know, get my oil changed in my car. I get to go have my oil changed. Like I am capable of going to do that. How thankful am I.
Kerri:I think, mary, you kind of mentioned this earlier and I wanted to hit on it again because I do think it is one of the things that helps people move forward when they are fearful or there's doubt you had self-doubt or fear, and really knowing, like how you're going to feel like once it's over, or how you want to feel once it, once it's over, and really kind of allowing yourself to live in that space ahead of the fearful, doubtful thing, I think is super helpful to a lot of people if you can just allow yourself to kind of get in your head about what it's going to feel like afterwards and how good it'll feel. Or you know whatever that feeling is for you, how supported you'll feel or loved you'll feel, or proud of yourself you're going to feel that I think that really helps to move forward.
Tracy:I think so too. Two things. The first thing is I've been reading a book and it talks about the power of our language and something that Pam said as well, you brought up as well about maybe it's not a problem, maybe it's an opportunity, and the language that we use turns from the fixing the problem to how might we A, b and C, and then you get more strengths-based language out of and you're able to help with the opportunity versus identify the problem, which I think many of us are really good at identifying the problem and building the case. But it's moving that to the how might we get to the other side of that. So that was a great phrase that I enjoyed this week, and then in my own therapy, when I get caught in those really, really scary moments, I've been doing internal family systems so, and that helps with trauma. It's my favorite thing in the universe.
Tracy:Right when you're somebody who's experienced trauma, when you get to the point where you're able to talk to those parts of yourself that are really scared and for me it's a very little person and even in those moments when you're panicking, and being able to have that self-dialogue to self-regulate is super helpful, but it is a difficult task to learn. But once you master it and I don't think that I've got to master it I think I've gotten to almost Jedi moves but not quite yet.
Tracy:I still need the help of the therapist a little bit. You still need a Yoda, I still need Yoda. I'm not ready to just walk out with the baby.
Eryn:There is a social media trend on TikTok right now of I met my younger self for coffee and she was 15 minutes early and she was very anxious and these were the qualities that I noticed about her and this is what I have to tell her and I mean, you know it is kind of therapizing they're therapizing themselves on TikTok but it's just like a great way to think back and have respect for yourself, and Brooke talked a lot about having empathy for yourself in past decisions on our last episode and I just thought that it's a fun trend to go check out if you guys haven't seen that.
Mary:And like kind of like what Pam said introspection, so thinking about you know who I was and who I am today, and who that girl who I was, shaped well, that's not being kind. I didn't like being so critical of myself by saying that my body betrayed me. My body has carried me 50 years and it's done a good job, and so whenever my mind goes to that what's my body going to do? That I really try to be more compassionate and to not say those negative things. Just accept it is what it is and I'll just employ some other strategies. But I don't need to, I don't know, shame myself for something that gosh I don't seem to have much control over.
Kerri:Erin, I like what you were talking about. I recently started working out on my elliptical again, which has been a slow go. Mary, I remember you saying at one point Two minutes, five minutes. I think you said five, two.
Mary:This last round. I started with two minutes.
Kerri:Okay, well, I love that. But I also decided the other day where I have the elliptical is in the back part of my house, and I thought I put a picture of younger me in the back part of the house Because younger me would stay on that elliptical for the whole time. She would not be like oh God, this is too hard. I got to get up so I put a picture of younger me back here so that when I feel like that, I can look at younger me and be like I am not letting you down, I'm going to keep going. And it works.
Tracy:So I love that. That's the reverse. I love it, Carrie.
Mary:Even if it's like one minute longer than you did the time before.
Kerri:I look at younger me and it's a picture of me when I was I think I've shared it with you guys before I was in brownies and I look really sweet and cute. I'm in my little brownie outfit, all right. Well, trace, I don't know if you're prepared for this, but do you want to tell us how to make tea this week?
Tracy:Well, I want to explain to Pam first what how to make tea is. It's the end of each of our podcasts. We give everybody a task to do for the next two weeks and you've given me homework before. That has been life changing, I remember I just I pulled out my professional development plan from when we had our class because you did such a great job outlining it. I kept it and I was just like oh, I did this, I did this, I did this. The only thing on there that I didn't do was, in my spare time, become a pet photographer.
Pam:I love that you accomplished so much on it, though. That's so cool.
Tracy:Yeah. Yeah, that was like check, check, check, check. Yeah, it was cool. I mean, it's been quite a few years. Don't think that I'm an overachiever, it's been. It's been a minute and I did keep the form because I like the process.
Pam:So, yeah, do you have anything that you think people should do in the next couple weeks to focus on their own growth and yeah, yeah, I think maybe one thing I mean, since the topic is self-doubt and like overcoming self-doubt, um, and I'll take this like to the more like self-reflective sort of therapeutic angle, and I'm so excited, tracy, that you brought up IFS, because, like what, now it's magic magic Like literally, this is part of what I've been doing for eight years, and like mapping all my parts and like figuring out each one, like originating circumstances, like how am.
Pam:I this today. It's just so freaking cool.
Pam:But yeah, I would say like a great activity related to self-doubt is like just sort of monitoring over the next two weeks, like where it comes up, you know and it could be like you have a little note on your phone, like I've got Samsung notes on my phone and if I like, if I'm out and about, I could just open my notes on notepad on my phone and put little thoughts in there. So maybe you start a note that's like this topic and you just start to like log or journal, like where am I feeling it, like when is the stress coming and what's happening in the moment, or when does the self-doubt come up and what is causing it, and then, at the end of the two weeks, I think you can look at it and see if there's a pattern there. You know, and usually if there's a pattern, there's something ingrained in us that caused that pattern. Otherwise there wouldn't be a pattern, right, it just wouldn't exist. So kind of digging in a little bit on what you learned about yourself and what that pattern is telling you and where it's coming from.
Pam:The other part of that, though, is like I believe wholeheartedly, you guys are I'm preaching to the choir, talking to you who are on the call, but to anyone else who listens to the podcast is like we can't, we cannot grow in isolation. It's not possible, you know, we have to have. We often say, like I'm in this program called ACA it's adult children of alcoholics and family dysfunction and we say in that program like this is a we program, not an I program. And even the IFS work that I do with my therapist, like when she looks back at me and affirms a big, huge realization I just had, and I look at her in the eyes and I feel seen my soul literally heals. Like in that moment if I was at home alone just journaling and like reflecting and then going and doing life and coming back and just journaling and reflecting and going into life, those big gut-wrenching healing moments wouldn't happen.
Pam:Like we need other humans, we're social beings. So I think if you do sort of track it and look at it and try to look for patterns where self-doubt creeps in and connect some thoughts of the past to the present, share it like, share it with someone and talk about it with somebody who's safe and good for you and empowering, and see where that leads, and maybe it creates a habit of just doing that with all things in your life over time.
Kerri:I love that. Thank you, that was spill the tea. Thanks guys. Thank you.
.png)
.png)
.png)
.png)
.png)